theminorthirds (12:50:55 AM): mmkay
theminorthirds (12:51:12 AM): so here's the thing:
theminorthirds (12:51:27 AM): the thing i found most interesting was something you brought up and then dropped to focus on something else
AnthonySEaston (12:51:39 AM): what was that
theminorthirds (12:51:41 AM): namely, the idea that the "joke" is lost in hogan's version
AnthonySEaston (12:51:58 AM): well the camp theatricality is gone from hogans version
theminorthirds (12:52:38 AM): ok, wait.
theminorthirds (12:52:43 AM): what, do you think, is the joke?
AnthonySEaston (12:53:36 AM): i dont see the joke in merritt, i really dont
AnthonySEaston (12:54:50 AM): but i also think that meritt is himself unable to conceptualise anything without
a) loads and loads of theory/referents
b) a sort of queer semoitics, a blankness, and a genre spec formalism (like warhol, crisp, etc)
AnthonySEaston (12:55:01 AM): so it works both ways
theminorthirds (12:55:06 AM): ok, but wait
theminorthirds (12:55:07 AM): wait
theminorthirds (12:55:11 AM): what's the joke?
theminorthirds (12:55:34 AM): i mean, i'd argue that there are a few jokes operating in the song
AnthonySEaston (12:55:41 AM): the joke is a refusal to take things seriously
theminorthirds (12:55:45 AM): no no
theminorthirds (12:55:47 AM): in the song
theminorthirds (12:55:58 AM): merritt's songs function as jokes
AnthonySEaston (12:56:00 AM): in the song...the gender switch
AnthonySEaston (12:56:04 AM): thats the joke
AnthonySEaston (12:56:17 AM): its a tender gay love song, wait a minute, no its a tender straight love song
theminorthirds (12:56:26 AM): oh, no.
theminorthirds (12:56:31 AM): i'd disagree with that
AnthonySEaston (12:56:46 AM): what do you think the joke is
theminorthirds (12:57:00 AM): even though it's sung by a woman, i think it's clearly meant to be a male voice there
theminorthirds (12:57:03 AM): or i mean
theminorthirds (12:57:05 AM): a male character
theminorthirds (12:57:18 AM): i mean that is a joke that's ruined
theminorthirds (12:57:26 AM): but i don't think it becomes a straight love song
theminorthirds (12:58:28 AM): i think merritt might think it's a joke to have the tender love song about people meeting who turn out to be perfect for one another -- sung as a country song -- be about people who meet up at a gay bar to have a one-night stand
theminorthirds (12:58:43 AM): tender country ballad rooted enough gay hook-up
AnthonySEaston (12:58:45 AM): yeah they do end up together
theminorthirds (12:58:46 AM): = joke
theminorthirds (12:58:53 AM): rooted in
AnthonySEaston (12:59:05 AM): and merritt heterosexualises it, thats the key for me, is the tension b/w queer and straight readings
AnthonySEaston (12:59:15 AM): and the history of domestic songs, of womens songs
theminorthirds (12:59:17 AM): well
theminorthirds (12:59:19 AM): ok, but
AnthonySEaston (12:59:24 AM): hes playing tammy
theminorthirds (12:59:27 AM): i don't think the woman's name can possibly be Mike
AnthonySEaston (12:59:29 AM): or dolly or loretta
AnthonySEaston (12:59:34 AM): but he claims it is
theminorthirds (12:59:37 AM): yes but
theminorthirds (12:59:55 AM): it's a tension between character and performer
AnthonySEaston (12:59:56 AM): (and it can be, i had a babysitter when i was 10 whos name was mike)
theminorthirds (12:59:57 AM): but
AnthonySEaston (1:00:03 AM): i had one at 6 named fred
AnthonySEaston (1:00:05 AM): both women
theminorthirds (1:00:13 AM): ah!
theminorthirds (1:00:24 AM): well
theminorthirds (1:00:37 AM): i mean i guess you can argue that, but it still seems like a misreading to me
theminorthirds (1:00:51 AM): i think there are other songs on the album that are sung by the "wrong" gender
AnthonySEaston (1:01:00 AM): i think that meritt gets sick of being assumed to be one kind of person, you know what i mean
AnthonySEaston (1:01:18 AM): the whole three albums make gendered reading a mine field
AnthonySEaston (1:01:22 AM): hogan normalizes it
theminorthirds (1:01:27 AM): right but
theminorthirds (1:01:30 AM): she ruins other jokes too
AnthonySEaston (1:01:33 AM): but then meritt has never liked a cover of one os his osngs
theminorthirds (1:01:34 AM): or at least
theminorthirds (1:01:35 AM): i'd argue
AnthonySEaston (1:01:36 AM): which ones
theminorthirds (1:01:45 AM): that she ruins the line about the "you know, every minute, someone dies"
theminorthirds (1:01:55 AM): which is a somewhat devastating joke!
AnthonySEaston (1:02:18 AM): she plays it straight (pun intended)
theminorthirds (1:02:23 AM): random straight hookups are not nearly as connected with death as random gay ones are.
theminorthirds (1:02:44 AM): i dunno, i can't see how the lines work if they aren't related to AIDS
AnthonySEaston (1:02:52 AM): and her role as a performer, from the beginning, has been to subjacate herself to other women and other men
AnthonySEaston (1:03:24 AM): and when you count rape and murder, something that women are as warned about, the culture of fear exists, etc, into that song
theminorthirds (1:03:40 AM): i mean there are other ways the line works, but
AnthonySEaston (1:03:42 AM): but shes coy about it, she isnt as cole porterish about her claiming pleasure
theminorthirds (1:04:05 AM): wait
theminorthirds (1:04:14 AM): does merritt (or the narrator) claim any pleasure in the song?
theminorthirds (1:04:19 AM): until the end, i mean
theminorthirds (1:04:32 AM): i guess the very first lines
theminorthirds (1:04:40 AM): but
theminorthirds (1:04:41 AM): even those
AnthonySEaston (1:04:55 AM): he book ends it
theminorthirds (1:04:59 AM): are more like, setting the stage for someone who will understand his jokes
AnthonySEaston (1:05:22 AM): the very first lines and the very last lines are about two very seperate kinds of pleasure, quick and long
theminorthirds (1:05:30 AM): not really!
theminorthirds (1:05:53 AM): the whole point is that they work because they share the same "twisted point of view"
theminorthirds (1:06:06 AM): they have the same heritage, etc
AnthonySEaston (1:06:57 AM): thats why the silence is impt, the long part s where nothing is said
theminorthirds (1:07:07 AM): ?
AnthonySEaston (1:07:14 AM): because its the silence of a fag cruise, and its the silence of the laconic west
theminorthirds (1:07:30 AM): there isn't much silence in the song
AnthonySEaston (1:08:03 AM): theres large sections where its just music, not quite silence, but not words either
theminorthirds (1:08:21 AM): they're not, you know, exceptionally long
theminorthirds (1:08:31 AM): that's how long bits between verses often are
AnthonySEaston (1:08:36 AM): w/i the course of the song, they are bout the lenght of the verses
theminorthirds (1:08:41 AM): no
AnthonySEaston (1:08:44 AM): and are foregrounded
theminorthirds (1:08:48 AM): well, maybe JUST the verses
theminorthirds (1:09:03 AM): but again, that isn't so rare
theminorthirds (1:09:25 AM): (hogan is really, REALLY into articulating her words)
AnthonySEaston (1:10:23 AM): isnt meritt
theminorthirds (1:10:47 AM): i should relisten, but i recall him as being into singing clearly but "naturally"
theminorthirds (1:11:06 AM): hogan inserts all these pauses so that certain phonemes that might get swallowed are clear
AnthonySEaston (1:11:11 AM): see thats what it is for me, i think hogan fits more into the traditon that merritt is atriculating
AnthonySEaston (1:11:14 AM): (sp)
AnthonySEaston (1:11:26 AM): her artifice seems more natural, then his naturalness
theminorthirds (1:11:29 AM): that i leave early () in the morning
theminorthirds (1:12:06 AM): well, whatever, it's two different styles
theminorthirds (1:12:22 AM): they're both really concerned with how they will come off
AnthonySEaston (1:12:41 AM): how they fit into their personaes?
theminorthirds (1:13:00 AM): he wants to sound "clear but natural", she wants to sound "clear but poised"
theminorthirds (1:13:12 AM): why don't just () get into my car
theminorthirds (1:13:32 AM): i mean, that pause is only so that she can pronounce the /t/ in just
theminorthirds (1:13:45 AM): otherwise it would be "jusget"
theminorthirds (1:14:19 AM): why does she want to pronounce words as they're written on paper, rather than as they're said?
theminorthirds (1:14:24 AM): she's "overcorrecting"
AnthonySEaston (1:14:31 AM): i dont think she is
theminorthirds (1:14:36 AM): yes, she is!
theminorthirds (1:14:42 AM): i'm pretty sure that's the term for it
AnthonySEaston (1:14:53 AM): if you listen to for example fist city or t he pill or down to dover or lil andy
theminorthirds (1:14:58 AM): when you pronounce things not how they are pronounced but how you think they "should" be pronounced
AnthonySEaston (1:15:03 AM): or stand by yr man
AnthonySEaston (1:15:04 AM): even
theminorthirds (1:15:08 AM): well, she's doing it in THIS song
AnthonySEaston (1:15:14 AM): it has that hyper articulation
AnthonySEaston (1:15:24 AM): what you call over correcting
theminorthirds (1:15:28 AM): wait
AnthonySEaston (1:15:35 AM): or what is called over correcting
theminorthirds (1:15:37 AM): you mean the original "stand by your man"?
theminorthirds (1:15:53 AM): tammy's?
AnthonySEaston (1:16:20 AM): yeah tammys
theminorthirds (1:16:37 AM): i'd have to relisten to it, but i seem to recall it sung as "stan by your man"
theminorthirds (1:16:58 AM): (which is correct)
theminorthirds (1:17:15 AM): (i mean, that's how it's said)
AnthonySEaston (1:17:26 AM): thats also an accent issue, like how loretta rimes tard and hard
theminorthirds (1:17:41 AM): ?
theminorthirds (1:17:42 AM): tard?
AnthonySEaston (1:17:54 AM): tired
theminorthirds (1:18:00 AM): oh yes
theminorthirds (1:18:07 AM): that's an accent
AnthonySEaston (1:18:24 AM): so is how tammy does stand
theminorthirds (1:18:37 AM): well find, but she's saying it in a typical style
AnthonySEaston (1:18:40 AM): but then stand is a bad example, b/c she does all that crazy shit in the middle of the verses
theminorthirds (1:18:44 AM): i mean i'd have to listen
AnthonySEaston (1:18:59 AM): want me to send it to you, i also have lyles
theminorthirds (1:19:00 AM): but i don't think there are any accents where you'd really say "stanD by your man"
theminorthirds (1:19:03 AM): no i have it
theminorthirds (1:19:06 AM): just in the other room
theminorthirds (1:19:38 AM): anyway i'm suggesting that if hogan sang it, she'd put a small pause after /stand/
theminorthirds (1:19:51 AM): to allow her to pronounce that /d/
AnthonySEaston (1:20:38 AM): is it the midwestern drawl thats letting her do it
theminorthirds (1:20:50 AM): letting her do what?
theminorthirds (1:21:04 AM): also, there is no midwestern drawl
AnthonySEaston (1:21:14 AM): isnt there in hogan
theminorthirds (1:21:20 AM): in this song?
AnthonySEaston (1:21:30 AM): in this song
theminorthirds (1:22:04 AM): i don't know, it sounds to me like she's aiming a hypercorrected version of received pronunciation, a few vowels are "twanged" but nothing is drawled
theminorthirds (1:22:12 AM): compare with dude at the end
AnthonySEaston (1:22:43 AM): whos the dude, do you know
theminorthirds (1:22:48 AM): no idea
theminorthirds (1:22:56 AM): this is your song, not mine ;-)
AnthonySEaston (1:23:07 AM): i have it in my notes
theminorthirds (1:23:26 AM): no, she's not doing a midwestern /a/ on her "band", "hand", "stand"s
AnthonySEaston (1:23:32 AM): the funny thing is, i think its the least clever, the most heart felt
AnthonySEaston (1:23:50 AM): of meritts, and i think hogans trying to avoid the other baggage, make it a love song
AnthonySEaston (1:23:58 AM): and yr right, i was wrong about the midwest bit
theminorthirds (1:24:32 AM): and a drawl is when a vowel becomes a diphthong
theminorthirds (1:25:24 AM): so you can hear it ever so slightly in him
theminorthirds (1:25:29 AM): sta-uhnd
theminorthirds (1:25:35 AM): well, ha-uhnd
theminorthirds (1:26:46 AM): one-not sta-ee-ah-ee-ah-ahnd
AnthonySEaston (1:26:58 AM): wht does his speakign voice outside of a stage so0und like, have you heard it
AnthonySEaston (1:27:08 AM): and wahts he like in bed, top, bottom, does he make the dog watch
theminorthirds (1:27:26 AM): merritt?
theminorthirds (1:27:28 AM): or random country dude?
AnthonySEaston (1:28:06 AM): meritt
theminorthirds (1:28:10 AM): (anyway compare the number of different vowels in her big "stand" -- one -- to his -- two or three that alternate -- to merritt)
theminorthirds (1:28:18 AM): no, i've never met him
AnthonySEaston (1:28:25 AM): i thot you had
theminorthirds (1:28:28 AM): nope
theminorthirds (1:28:33 AM): i've met people who've met him
theminorthirds (1:28:34 AM): but
theminorthirds (1:28:39 AM): so have many people, i guess
AnthonySEaston (1:28:50 AM): one on one or otherwise
theminorthirds (1:29:12 AM): well, i have talked with todd haynes about being interviewed by merritt
AnthonySEaston (1:29:43 AM): tell me that story
theminorthirds (1:29:49 AM): uh
theminorthirds (1:29:54 AM): haynes had no idea who he was
theminorthirds (1:30:02 AM): it was shortly before 69LS got big, i guess
theminorthirds (1:30:13 AM): but merritt came off as though they were equals
theminorthirds (1:30:23 AM): that sort of "oh yeah, i've been there too" stuff
theminorthirds (1:30:34 AM): which haynes was a bit surprised by, since that's not how most journalists behave
AnthonySEaston (1:32:18 AM): his role as a journalist is strange
AnthonySEaston (1:32:27 AM): hes more of a critic, and a really limited one at that
theminorthirds (1:32:39 AM): well, you do what you can to pay the bills
theminorthirds (1:33:03 AM): anyway, limited critics are the best kind
AnthonySEaston (1:33:24 AM): he seems like he thinks hes better then it
AnthonySEaston (1:33:32 AM): i wonder what hogan does to pay the bills